From the moment Jason Oakley started working in kitchens, he defied expectations. His first boss could have called the cops on him. He offered him a job instead. He spent years working in Michelin-starred restaurants and fine dining destinations in Dubai and Shanghai only to pivot to a sports bar. And now, he is the proprietor of Sub Standard, a postage-stamp-sized storefront that slings some seriously good sandwiches. Today, he talks about working for celeb chefs, why sandwiches are an underappreciated art, and why he no longer believes in freezers.

Why did you start cooking?

When I was a teenager in South Carolina, I was a skater, and my friends and I used to skateboard behind this Italian restaurant. So, one day, the chef came out. He was yelling at us about all the noise we were making and how it was making his customers feel uncomfortable. Then he asks us, “What the hell are you guys doing, anyway?” We said, “Wall rides.” He's like, "Show me what a wall ride is." We showed him, and he says, "Wow. That's pretty cool. You want a job?" We’re like, "What do we have to do?" He says, "Wash dishes." So, I said, "Yeah. Sounds easy enough. Let's go." I was about 15 years old.

So, by around age 19, I started realizing I wanted to take the craft more seriously and put the work into it. I started working for some serious chefs at that time (including a pop-up with Daniel Boulud). Then I started traveling. And what a great job if you want to travel the world! Because everybody needs a chef. Everybody's opening somewhere, so it gives you an opportunity to travel, and cook, and learn about new cultures.

Fast forward to 2006. I’m in Asia. I worked at the Peninsula in Hong Kong in 2006. I went to Singapore for a while to do some consulting in the Clarke Quay area. Then I came to Shanghai and worked at Laris in Three on the Bund. Then 2010 hit, and everybody got laid off. So, I went to Dubai and started to open the Burj Khalifa on the 122nd floor. Then I went to Abu Dhabi to work in the St. Regis in Abu Dhabi on Saadiyat Island, which was an amazing property, amazing steakhouse, really great job. But after three years, I came to realize that the Middle East and I aren’t a great match.

Why is that?

Well, I like dogs, pork, and alcohol. They don't. So, we had to agree to disagree and just move on. I was eager to come back to East Asia, and I got lucky. The Mandarin Oriental was opening a new property in Lujiazui. Richard Ekkebus was working on Fifty 8º Grill. Richard and I had known each other in the past, and we had hit it off, so timing was on my side for that. And it was cool to work there for a while. I mean, I love the MO. I love that hotel brand. It was great. But the business levels weren't as exciting as it was on the other side of the river. So, I got bored.

And then I met John [Liu] from Coquille and Scarpetta. I had quite a few good years there, and it was great to work with him. Enjoyed it. Fast forward a little bit, and I befriended the guys from Cages.

That move always threw me for a loop, going from high-end fine dining to the everyman cuisine of a sports bar.

I never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever thought I would ever do anything in an American sports bar, especially that size. But I took it on as a challenge. The place seats around 700, I think. I'd never cooked much American cuisine, but I eat it all the time. But I could never find a burger I wanted. I could never find the nachos I wanted. I could never find the wings I wanted. I wanted to do it, only if I could do “American cuisine” at a high volume, accessible to the masses, and still make it taste good. We decided to do everything in-house. So, we built a bakery to bake our own bread. We ground our own meat. We marinated our own chicken wings. We went full in. And it was really cool to have a fresh product and show people what a burger should be or what a pizza should be.

Was it hard to retool your brain to scale your operations down to something that could fit inside the Cages restroom?

No. And this place is smaller than the bathroom at Cages. When we found this place, I came in here with a tape measure and red tape. I measured every single thing that I wanted to put in to see if it would fit. This place is 19.5 square meters. To fit all this equipment into something 19.5 square was a challenge.

Did you have to make any tough sacrifices?

Well, number one and number two, a freezer and a fryer. But it was more important that we have a proper oven, a mixer, and a proofer. Not having a freezer is fine, actually. It forces us to keep everything fresh.

Do you think sandwich shops are underappreciated?

I don't think people realize the amount of work that goes into something so simple but hard to execute. Now, yeah, I can go to a supermarket, buy myself a baguette, go to the cold cuts section, go to the vegetable section. I can put this together at home and then I'll eat that bread and go, “Wow! That thing was tough, and crunchy, and hurt the roof of my mouth, and it was really not delicious.” And so, one thing I love about cooking is you want everything to look simple, but simple doesn't mean easy.

What do you think it says about the restaurant industry that you've decided to open a small sandwich shop with only a couple of chairs?

I've talked to a lot of friends who are still in restaurants, and they all say, "Screw you! You're the one that got out, and you're doing something we all want to do."

Would you ever go back?

…

That’s a long pause!

Maybe? Yeah? I mean, I do miss it. I miss the ingredients, the guest satisfaction, talking to customers, suggesting nice bottles of wine, the whole thing. It was part of my life for so long. How could you say that you would never go back to something that has rewarded you your entire career?

Give us a highlight and lowlight from your fine dining career. Maybe name and shame a particularly awful chef you worked for.

I wouldn't shame anyone, per se.

“Per Se”? Are you firing a subtle shot at Thomas Keller?

No! He was great. I've got nothing but good words to say about that guy.

Did he ever teach you how to pull a wishbone out of a roasted chicken?

No. But he did teach me how to taste caviar, which was pretty cool. Tasting caviar with Thomas Keller and his caviar supplier — there’s a highlight for you. Opening the Wynn in Las Vegas. That was an experience. How many people can say they were on the opening team of a 3,000-room casino at a fine dining establishment where money was no option? And you look in the trash can on a Tuesday to see what people are drinking and it’s empty bottles of La Tâche, Cheval Blanc, and 1966 Dom Perignon Oenotheque Brut?! Lowlights? I wouldn't say there was one.

Where do you eat when you aren’t making sandwiches?

Well, my son loves burgers. So, he and I go around the city and just eat burgers everywhere. We've been hitting RAC Allée. The burger's damn good over there. Our go-to is probably Five Guys because we can get a nice milkshake. When it’s just me and the wife, of course, it’s hard to say no to Villa Lebec. It's just so good, and so consistent, and we know exactly what we want when we sit down.

So, I’ve heard that Sub Standard has an underground menu…

We have a loyal base of customers, and we want to give them a little something different. So, we came up with the idea that if you join our WeChat group, then you get access to what we call an underground menu. It changes every month, and you won’t find these items on the delivery apps. So, you order in code. Instead of a sandwich, you might have to order an inordinate amount of Coke Zeroes.

What if the customer is just really thirsty for Coke Zero?

Man, believe me. No one drinks that much Coke Zero.

What kinds of sandwiches are on these menus?

We often take suggestions from people in the group. We recently offered a New York chopped cheese sandwich, like the ones you’d get in a bodega. We had one guy ask for a California club sandwich, and I said, "Hey! No arrogant fruits or pretentious nuts in this house, bro! This is an avocado-free zone!”

Sometimes we’ll do something seasonal or thematic. Recently for Thanksgiving we did our version of the “Bobbie” from Capriotti's, a chain of sandwich shops in the US. It’s Thanksgiving on a bun — shaved turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, and mayo. It's all leftovers and no family. That's the best part, right? We did turkey soup and pumpkin pie too.

How does one get into this group?

That I’m not going tell your readers. But they probably have a friend — or maybe a friend of a friend — who is in it. So, they’ll just have to figure it out themselves.