Copy Editor's Note: Interviews with film producers might not catch the interest of a wide audience. However, what we found compelling with this interview, is the span of perspective we get, from a Dutch gentleman who first came to China in the 1980s. Residents of Shanghai, love these perspectives, because of how fascinating they are to those of us, who can barely imagine Pudong as open fields, and Puxi with flat skylines. Pieter gives us an incredible look at what his journey was like in China, and how it has evolved (and how he has seen China evolve) over these last 40 years. Enjoy the read.

"China has given me so much – particularly the extraordinary trust that the people here have placed in me. This trust forms the foundation of my love for China."

Pieter Fleury

These words come from Pieter Fleury (1955), an acclaimed Dutch film director who began his career in China. Returning to Shanghai for a single-day trip after a seven-year absence, Fleury reflects on his long-standing connection with the country.

With over 45 years of extensive filmmaking experience, Fleury has collaborated with renowned actors such as Sean Connery (James Bond, 007) and Marcello Mastroianni (La Dolce Vita, 8½), won the Gouden Kalf at the Netherlands Film Festival, taught at film schools worldwide, and served as a jury member for several festivals including the Chengdu Film Festival. He has produced six documentaries in China through his production company, Golden Monkey Enterprises. His filmography covers a diverse range of topics, including Shanghai, the People's City (1985) and Times of the Emperor (2010).

Wong Kar Wai, director of Blossoms Shanghai (2023), reached out to Fleury after watching Shanghai, the People's City (1985), seeking insights into the production process during that era.

I had the opportunity to interview Fleury during his visit to Shanghai, where his cinematographic journey in China began. Fleury's story traces back to his first visit to China, when he embarked on a photography field trip to conduct research for his directorial debut in the country.

Coming to China

What motivated you to come to China? Do you have any interesting stories from your first visit?

I arrived in China in 1979, just after graduating from the film academy in the Netherlands. At 24, I was a rookie who borrowed some money from my aunt and took a big gamble by coming to China. For four weeks, I traveled with Walther – a friend from film school – through Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Guilin, Changsha, Shaoshan, Shanghai, Beijing, Liaoning and Shenyang, on two combined trips organized by the Dutch-China Friendship Organization. As a result, I took more than 300 photos in preparation for the film I wanted to make. The journey left a profound impact on me, especially after meeting so many warm and friendly people in a country that was in its first steps to becoming a modern China.

Becoming a film director had been my childhood dream. But how does one make such a dream a reality? A movie requires funding, and most importantly, permission from the Film Bureau in Beijing. Determined to make it happen, I started planning, working hard, and hoping for a bit of luck.

During our trip to Shenyang, I made a friend who wanted to learn English and I was eager to learn Mandarin. Coincidentally, his uncle happened to be the head of the Film Bureau in Beijing. His introduction was exactly the luck I had hoped for, as it resulted in a meeting with his uncle and the Bureau staff at the Peking Hotel in 1980 – the same hotel where Nixon met Chairman Mao in 1972 during the early years of Ping-Pong diplomacy.

How did that meeting go?

I arrived the evening before, and spent the night tied in knots, ruminating about what to say – I only had one shot. The next morning, I found myself facing nine government officials seated on classic Chinese-style rosewood furniture. I pitched my idea to make a promotional film about the rural areas and cities of the Chinese mainland for tourism and commercial purposes. A Dutch friend had advised me to bring gifts like a TV or at least a radio, as this is considered a sign of respect in the Chinese tributary system. Believing this would be a bad sign and because I was too poor to afford that, I brought small liquor bottles decorated with red ribbons and handed them over.

The group of men smiled and politely applauded the young Pieter's thoughtfulness.

The delegation from the Film Bureau listened intently to my proposal and quickly got to the point: "So, how much money are you going to give us?" I panicked – I had almost no money and was scrambling to think of a response. Finally, I blurted out, "2,500 US dollars." At that time, this was a significant amount for me.

The group of men erupted in laughter, stood up, and walked toward the window.

At that moment, I was left sitting in my chair; feeling uncertain and alone. The group convened and deliberated. Finally, the head of the Film Bureau called for order, approached me, and said, "Tomorrow morning, we'll meet here again and give you our final verdict."

The next day, the words I had been waiting for were finally spoken: "Although we understand your financial difficulties, we accept your proposal."

I felt an immense sense of gratitude and a surge of self-confidence – somehow I had managed to secure a deal with a group of government officials in China. The Film Bureau likely thought I wouldn't be able to pull it off, but they were prepared if the time arrived. I can't remember if I paid or not, but I understood at that time I had to make an offer to be taken seriously. In the end, the city of Shanghai ended up sponsoring the film through hotel accommodations and on-site production costs for my team.

This marked the beginning of my filmmaking in China, thanks to the support of the compassionate people at the Film Bureau. After shooting my first movie, Beyond Tokyo (1983), it took me five years to set up the production for this project. I was ready for my next big adventure – this time in Shanghai.

Shanghai, The People's City (1985)

What was your idea for this movie? Walk us through the creative process from idea to post-production.

After my photography field trip in 1979, I realized that nobody actually knew anything about China. The last images in the West were pictures during the cultural revolution, most people assumed China was poor and red. However, I had experienced China as a country full of warm and friendly people, who are hard-working and studying diligently, ready to embrace modernization and catch up to the rest of the world. This was the reality of China that I wanted to portray as a documentary maker. I decided to focus on Shanghai – the city of people, the face of China to the world, and the most vibrant, bustling place in the country.

I signed the deal with the Film Bureau in 1984, but before I could start, I had to set up bilateral agreements between Shanghai and sister city Rotterdam to get sufficient financing for my documentary. Afterwards, I was invited to the Jinjiang Hotel where I stayed for five months. In three months, I completed my research in cooperation with the Film Bureau. Then, my film crew –camera operator Goert Giltay and audio engineer Bert van den Dungen – arrived in China and we shot the documentary in two months.

During the production, we scouted various locations, but being among the first foreign filmmakers that many people had ever seen, we attracted a lot of attention. Crowds of curious onlookers would gather whenever we were visibly filming. To avoid this, at some point, we hid our equipment in cardboard boxes on a small cart on wheels and filmed the daily life of Shanghai from an exclusive movable spot. I monitored everything from afar using a transmitter and receiver to ensure everything was going smoothly.

How did you realize this movie despite the cultural and language differences? Tell us about the obstacles you had to overcome in producing this movie.

One day, I was playing soccer in a square called the People's Square when I met Feng Wei Leung, also known as William (the same person in the second photo). We hit it off immediately, and he soon became close friends, inviting me to dinners at his family's home. Over time, his parents treated me like one of their own, even giving me the name "冯磊." The pinyin pronunciation of 冯磊 is Féng Lěi similar to Fleury and starts with William's family name (冯). There's a scene in the movie where William's entire family gathers for a meal – a genuine moment of connection that made it into the final cut.

William understood that I was looking for "the new China" and told me about a place where people were dancing, like a disco. It sounded unbelievable, especially when the campaign against spiritual pollution was still sensitive. When I saw the club for the first time, I was amazed – it was like nothing I expected in post-cultural revolution China. Initially, the Film Bureau was hesitant to include this in the documentary but when I returned with the Film Bureau; they understood that this was also part of modern-day China and a reality that they could be proud of. Shanghai was everything that others said it was not.

"Initially, the Film Bureau was hesitant to include this in the documentary but when I returned with the Film Bureau; they understood that this was also part of modern-day China and a reality that they could be proud of. Shanghai was everything that others said it was not."

Pieter Fleury

What are the main differences and similarities between Shanghai in 1985 and 2024?

The most striking contrast between 2024 and 1985 is how much has been lost. The cultural and historical heritage has been replaced by soaring skyscrapers, leaving Shanghai feeling distant and impersonal. Renewal doesn't always mean improvement. Progress must be carefully examined, especially when it risks erasing the cultural identity of Shanghai's citizens. However, one thing hasn't changed: the people of Shanghai haven't lost their sense of humor or belonging.

William (1965), a local Shanghainese and Pieter's brother-in-arms for 40 years, reflects, "Shanghai – the city has changed, but the people have not. Society has become more individualized due to globalization, capitalism and digital technology, but local communities, architectural heritage and culture must be protected and promoted in Shanghai."

The opening scene of Shanghai, the People's City features a suave singer dressed in a black-tie tuxedo, supported by a symphonic orchestra, performing in a disco with red velvet curtains in the background. Young adults dance and swing rhythmically as the chorus of "Alibaba, Alibaba" echoes repeatedly through the club. The rest of the film captures daily life in Shanghai, narrated alongside the Constitution of the People's Republic of China (1954).

Shanghai, the People's City (1985) offers an observational and humanistic perspective on the rapid modernization of Shanghai as a city, along with its people and culture. The movie was shot using two 16mm film cameras capturing different angles and every moment of daily life, with the aid of an interpreter, transmitter and microphone.

Past, Present and Future of China

What was your most profound lesson in China?

The most important lesson I learned in China is to simply be sincere.

Don't try to act bigger than you are. Pride always comes before a fall.

How did you overcome the cultural obstacles between the Netherlands and China?

The key is to learn the language – even just a few words in the local dialect can make a huge difference. Building friendships with people is essential. Travel the country, meet the people, and immerse yourself in their lives.

What is your proudest moment or achievement in your career?

Winning the Gouden Kalf at the Netherlands Film Festival for Ramses (2002) was my proudest moment. Ramses, Où Est Mon Prince? (2002) is a documentary about my neighbor, folk singer, actor and painter Ramses Shaffy.

Ramses was a figure who had been largely forgotten by many, but I have known him since I was a young boy, playing together with his cats and bringing his empty wine bottles back to the stores. This personal relation was fundamental to making this film. The premiere of this documentary marked the first and only time the Netherlands Film Festival opened with a documentary, and the event drew about a thousand visitors, including my friends from the Embassy of the People's Republic of China in the Netherlands which I had invited. It was an unforgettable and spectacular moment – simply insurmountable.

What do you perceive as the main challenges for the film industry, and how can filmmakers adapt to the evolution of short-form content and streaming platforms?

The greatest challenge for filmmakers today is to craft a poignant, emotional and compelling story – one that truly resonates with people. The question is, how do you reach your audience? What message do you want to convey? These are the essential considerations as the industry evolves.

What role do documentaries play in promoting cross-cultural understanding in this increasingly polarized world?

Documentaries play a crucial role. The images presented in a documentary often carry a sense of credibility and trustworthiness. However, it's important to recognize that when a documentary is made with the cooperation or approval of a third party, it doesn't always tell the complete story. Scenes may be selected, and not everything may be shown. This means that the artistic expression of the documentary maker can be partly censored.

What is your advice for creative storytellers who are interested in showcasing China to the outside world?

The story must always be honest. Creative storytellers need to earn the trust of the people, including the government and relevant agencies. This trust is what allows them to operate and create space for artistic expression. The size of the story – whether big or small – doesn't matter. What's most important is the feeling it evokes, as that's what garners sympathy. In today's world, we need more sympathy and understanding which lead to more positive outcomes.

What is your final message for China?

Trust your friends. Keep them close to you. Many people love China.

Epilogue

Pieter is still very much active in the world of documentary filmmaking, with his latest project, The Voice of the Child. An international series that explores how juvenile court judges communicate with children during divorce proceedings behind closed doors. The aim of this production is to prepare the next generation of judges and lawyers for a practical and empathetic approach in their dialogue with young children facing difficult situations.

Pieter is an inspiration – embodying authenticity, humility and a determined ethos to bridge the gap between cultural differences.

If you wish to get in touch with Pieter Fleury, you can reach him at:

Email: golden@monkey.demon.nl

For more information about his filmography, visit:

Golden Monkey Enterprises – Filmography